Why do people think that using linux makes them an expert?

It’s always the same story… I’ve written about it before, repeatedly, actually, and yesterday it happened yet again, right here on this blog. This time by self-proclaimed expert Jed Smith.

Apparently he thinks that he is an expert on security, for ALL OSes, just because he uses linux. He seems to think that linux is the blueprint for all OSes everywhere, so his limited knowledge of things such as Access Control Lists based on half-baked linux add-ons makes him an expert on Windows as well.

So, he comes off with the usual arrogant and pedantic rhetoric:

“You’re free to critique things but at least know your material beforehand”.

Sure… problem is, I did, he didn’t. Once I answered, and a technical discussion ensued, it quickly became obvious that he has no idea what he is talking about. He is locked into the linux mindset (“everything is a file”, “ACLs only exist in the filesystem” etc), and has little or no grasp of how Windows works (newsflash: Windows is not based on *nix. Although it may borrow some ideas from the *nix-world, in other areas it is nothing like *nix in any way). So it quickly becomes very painful when you have to explain some very basic features of the Win32API (which has been that way since 1993, unlike the ACL patches and other things such as SELinux and AppArmor, which were introduced to hack similar security features into linux as an afterthought).

Even though limited ACL support exists for linux and similar *nix-like OSes, it is not quite a mature solution yet, as linux developers will tell you: http://www.suse.de/~agruen/acl/linux-acls/online/

I just wonder: what is it with linux that makes people like Jed Smith think they know everything about every OS? Why do they try to tell others that they don’t know what they’re talking about, while they don’t know the facts themselves?

Not that I consider myself an expert in the least, I merely try to know the facts before I speak. It does help however that I have quite a bit of experience of developing on Windows and various *nix-like OSes, and that I have studied the OS internals of Windows and linux at university (with the great book “Operating System Concepts” by Silberschatz and Galvin). It also helps that I was hired by a university to develop an efficient ACL-based security system for their Typo3-based CMS, as the size of the organization gave them trouble managing the security with just the built-in *nix-like owner/group/world security bits, or with existing ACL-plugins.

Jed Smith, you are an idiot! Of the arrogance-through-ignorance kind! And there are so many of you! It’s like the linux idiot army!

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95 Responses to Why do people think that using linux makes them an expert?

  1. jedsmithmith says:

    Your university failed you by introducing you to Silberschatz instead of Tanenbaum (far superior) or Stallings. They also did a pretty poor job of preparing you for the real world — particularly the IT real world — where people will respectfully disagree with you, often. I perhaps wasn’t the most respectful, but I didn’t lash out like a tool, either.

    Most importantly, I use Windows 7 every day, as I think it’s the best out of the batch. I use UNIX on servers, where it belongs — and that’s a split between Linux at my day job and FreeBSD elsewhere. I’m not a proponent of the Linux desktop and never have been. As a sane, reasonable IT professional I am aware of the weaknesses of all of my tools and I spend my time improving things rather than arguing which is better.

    To be honest, this security debate is even more pointless than a language debate. A true IT professional knows how to use both, knows their best role, and actually contributes something to the craft instead of fighting with zeal against the tyranny of the other side.

    I’m rising above feeding into this, but you’d do well to know that just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they’re an idiot and you look absolutely silly when responding like this.

    • Scali says:

      Ah yes, let’s take cheap-shots at me, my university, and the literature I referred to. Very mature (and if Tanenbaum is so much better, then what is your excuse for knowing so little about Windows internals? Not that I have anything against Tanenbaum by the way, I have read some of his books as well. They are indeed very good, and I like his humourous style of writing).
      As for the real IT-world, look at yourself. I have no problem with respectfully disagreeing with others. But as you yourself already admit: you weren’t very respectful yourself. And again in your reply I can taste a level of arrogance that indicates that you think you are the more knowledgable and experienced of us. I probably have quite a few more years in IT under my belt than you do. And probably in higher positions and more high-tech environments. Not that I feel like throwing a resume around to impress someone like you, let alone that I think that being more experienced would mean that I am right more often, let alone that I wouldn’t have to listen to the opinion of someone less experienced. But it smells of illusory superiority on your behalf.

      I don’t care whether you use Windows or not, that is not the point (and statistically, how small is the chance that any *nix advocate has never used Windows? I mean, let’s be realistic here). The point is also not that you disagreed with me. The point is in the tone you used when disagreeing with me, combined with your obvious lack of knowledge about Windows (using Windows doesn’t make you are an expert on OS internals anymore than linux does). That is what makes you an idiot. I am making an example out of you, because there are too many people like you around. You also failed to ‘rise above’, by the way.

      Lastly, I never argued which is better. But only a sane, reasonable IT professional would be able to objectively read my posts, and understand what I did and didn’t say (perhaps you should read some more of my blog posts to get a bit of an idea about what kind of OSes and technologies I use, or have used, and what my stance is. Hint: I’m not pro-Microsoft or pro-Windows, let alone Microsoft/Windows-only).

      But hey: I’m a reasonable guy, I didn’t delete or edit your reply. You can have your say, and defend yourself if you like. I don’t believe in censorship. I believe in mature, fair, reasonable debate.

      • Jed Smith says:

        I don’t think “cheap shot” means what you think it does.

      • Scali says:

        I thought something like this: http://www.yourdictionary.com/cheap-shot

        cheap shot
        noun
        An unfair or unsporting verbal attack on a vulnerable target.

        That’s how it was meant anyway.
        In other words: your digs at me, the university etc were all just fallacies. They don’t have anything to do with the real subject at hand. If my technical knowledge was shown to be lacking, start a technical debate on things I said wrong, not on what university I may have gone to, or what books I may have used there. The fact that you made these digs shows at the very least that you are not capable of respectfully disagreeing (you made the digs, I didn’t make any digs, I merely confronted you with your own behaviour right here on my blog, which everyone can see for themselves), and is also an indication that you don’t have any real arguments to add to the discussion.

      • Lamie says:

        Why?, because Windows and Osx does most everything for you, you learn very little from either of them, whereas (atleast on the Linux I joined) you actually had to learn how computers actually worked and learn the proper terminology and concepts, that is why using Linux makes you more knowledgeable,

        The End.

      • Scali says:

        I don’t think an OS is a didactic tool in the first place. Yes, some systems require you to study more than others before you can use them, but in the end for an end-user it is always going to be more superficial than people who actually develop the systems. You won’t reach expert level in terms of OS technology, security and whatnot by just being a casual linux user, or even a casual linux developer. Just like with Windows, OS X and whatever other system, you are going to have to study the material more in-depth.

        The other point is that even if you may know a lot about the linux internals, that does not necessarily mean you know much about other systems, which may use entirely different solutions to certain problems.

        At the very least, linux apparently gives people the false sense that they do know a lot about every area of computing.
        There is a big difference between knowing how to configure and use a system, and actually knowing what goes on under the bonnet. Take my oldskool/retroprogramming articles for example: Older systems generally require you to be able to use a commandline or BASIC interpreter or such. Some, such as the Amiga and MS-DOS, might also require you to know how to configure some hardware and set up some startup-scripts in order to get certain software to run. Especially MS-DOS can be quite complicated to configure, and you need to understand things like IO-address ranges, interrupt request lines and DMA channels, not to mention conventional memory, upper memory blocks, v86 mode, EMS, XMS…

        However, none of that teaches you anything about what I write in my articles, on how to actually interface with the hardware, and what kind of algorithms and routines you can use for various graphics effects and whatnot.

        Now, linux people seem to think that because they know how to edit their config scripts, and perhaps even compile a custom kernel, that they are experts at things like coding, security, optimization and whatnot.
        That’s about as ridiculous as thinking that if you know how to start a game on MS-DOS, you know exactly how that game works inside (and would be able to write it yourself).
        They make it even more ridiculous by thinking that all other OSes work exactly the same as linux does (as Jed Smith has so aptly demonstrated with his complete ignorance of ACLs and security attributes in the Windows API).

      • Hunter says:

        Ok, sorry, this comment might be a little late, since you may have turned into an arrogant prick…that is if you are not already one. First of all, JED is completely correct, and you need to calm yourself down and think about others. You asked a question and he answered. You then responded like a Bi***. Before you post something else, think about it…Do you really want an answer? Or are you just wanting to argue with someone? And BOOM, anyone coming to your rescue big boy? That’s what i thought. Also, JED you are correct, and do not listen to him any longer. Thanks. AND AS FOR YOU Scali, i do not expect a response.

      • Scali says:

        First of all, JED is completely correct

        No he isn’t.

        You asked a question and he answered.

        I did not ask any questions, I shared a link to an article discussing the alleged safety/security of OS X, and added some of my own thoughts. Then arrogant Jed thought he had to ‘correct’ me, failing to do so, since he did not understand ACLs and Windows properly. I was not wrong in the first place, he just didn’t understand.

        And BOOM, anyone coming to your rescue big boy?

        There were a few people who supported my statements (eg Sune Marcher and mh), and we also backed many things up by linking directly to Microsoft documentation.
        What exactly are you trying to argue? I mean, how dumb are you, really? It’s obvious that Jed is wrong.

    • Scali says:

      Well, not many people have come to your rescue, have they?

  2. Alex Callaghan says:

    Scali,

    You seem to be a bit rude and overly aggressive in situations where they are not warranted. This blog post appears to be no different. You did not write this post to add to the previous topic, but rather to be a personal attack on Jed, as well as a sweeping statement of *all* Linux (notice the capitalization as it is a proper noun) users.

    “Jed Smith, you are an idiot! Of the arrogance-through-ignorance kind! And there are so many of you! It’s like the linux idiot army!” — Please clarify to me how this statement, in any way, can be considered constructive? (Also, watch your proper nouns.)

    I must admit I am not impressed with your conduct. Maybe you should realize comments are not always meant to be abrasive or confronting. They are designed to continue the conversation and possible clarify, or request clarification, for topics discussed in the article. Maybe you should take a step back and read the comments as someone having a conversation with you, not someone attacking you. I feel you can then provide better responses and continue with a constructive conversation.

    This blog post is nothing but an enraged rant where *NOTHING* constructive was accomplished. Maybe you should have made this article start off by mentioning the comments by Jed, and then made it a constructive post. Instead of continuing on to explain ACLs and touch every topic, you continued it as a personal attack.

    Your conduct in this blog post made it quite apparent who the idiot is here. It also brings an internet meme to mind:

    “u mad bro?”

    -Alex

    • Scali says:

      Hi Alex, let me just pick out a few things here.

      You seem to be a bit rude and overly aggressive in situations where they are not warranted.

      That is your opinion. This is my blog, where I post my opinions.

      You did not write this post to add to the previous topic, but rather to be a personal attack on Jed, as well as a sweeping statement of *all* Linux (notice the capitalization as it is a proper noun) users.

      Indeed, it was not meant to add to the previous topic. It was meant to harken back to an earlier topic, a gripe I’ve had with the linux community for years now (see the “Are all linux users idiots?” blog, for example, first link in this blog).
      I have not made a sweeping statement however, I just said there’s ‘an army’ of such people. That does not imply that *all* linux users are like that (which you can also read in the very first line of the aforementioned blog).
      Nice of you to pick up on the deliberate non-capitalization of linux by the way (but not FreeBSD, for example *hint*). I always do that, bit of an in-joke… a response on how some people like to write Micro$oft or Windoze etc.

      Please clarify to me how this statement, in any way, can be considered constructive?

      Blogs tend to be opinion pieces, opinions are not always constructive. Sometimes they are not even trying to be constructive at all! In this case, however, I try to be constructive by confronting people with their behaviour, in the idle hope that they may realize what they are doing, and subsequently change their ways.

      Maybe you should realize comments are not always meant to be abrasive or confronting.

      That I do, that I do. I think my first response was perfectly friendly and constructive. I merely pointed him to the proper MSDN background info. I just added a small jab at the end to counter the jab he put in his own post, in the hope that he would see the irony.
      Then he became increasingly pedantic and argumentative, rather than just admitting he was wrong with his earlier assessment, and his jab was uncalled for. And only *then* do the gloves come off. As you can see, I have been friendly to the other posters, extending them the same courtesy they have given me (much like with Jed, really).

      There is no point in continuing the conversation, as Jed has not bothered to respond to the last replies by myself and Sune Marcher. The ball is in his court on that matter. Had he just admitted he was wrong, then he wouldn’t have come off so arrogant. But when someone like Jed comes here, insults my knowledge for no apparent reason, and then just leaves a technical discussion without even having the decency to admit he was wrong, let alone apologize for his behaviour, then yes, I will tell someone like that EXACTLY how I feel about them.

      Oh, I’d like to add another opinion of mine: your post here seems to be quite a rant. If you had taken the time to follow how the original conversation between Jed and myself evolved, perhaps your judgement would have been different. And perhaps if you understand the true idea behind this blog post, you might change your opinion on that as well.
      Not sure what your point is supposed to be anyway. You seem to be the same type of person as Jed Smith, thinking you’re better/more experienced/etc than I am, and try to tell me how I should conduct myself. I have no idea who you are, or why I should even listen to you. And you have no idea who I am, so I wonder why you try to judge and even lecture me. I’m not some kid who writes Python scripts, you know. I’m a very experienced developer and project manager. I know how the IT world works, and I know how to deal with people, especially other developers.

      PS: There is an extra in-joke in that I use rhetoric and terms such as ‘idiot’, as used by prominent linux/OSS advocate Eric S. Raymond.

    • Scali says:

      Not even a reply for courtesy? You guys are all the same. Shoot off your big mouth, jumping to conclusions, then sneaking out like a thief in the night. Weak, very weak.

  3. Bonzai says:

    I kinda look at linux users as rebels without a cause. They don’t wish to really be part of any kind of OS that has a brand to it. Like Apple or Microsoft. Most of the linux users I knew in the past hated on MS. But eh, I am a gamer so I am really just neutral on all of it. I use Windows because of the games. SPEAKING OF GAMES.

    Crysis 2 DX11 finally did come out. It does look really pretty. Interestingly enough there is already a benchmark on it from a Euro website. Nvidia seems to dominate in performance lead. (Due to tweaks or hardware differences but I hug my 920 @ 4.2 580 SLI rig)

    http://gamegpu.ru/Action-/-FPS-/-TPS/Crysis-2-v-rezhime-DirectX-11-test-GPU.html

    Keep it up Scali! Hates gonna hate, remember that!

    • Scali says:

      Yes, an old saying is: “Linux users use linux because they hate Windows. BSD users use BSD because they love UNIX”.
      I think there is some irony in that: A lot of people use Windows simply because it is the most obvious option, not because they really thought about what kind of OS suits their needs best. The people who hate Microsoft/Windows use linux simply because it is the most obvious option, not because they really thought about what kind of OS suits their needs best. So in a way they’re no better than the Windows users they despise for “not thinking about the OS they choose”.

      In many ways, linux is the Windows of the non-Microsoft world. It has the largest userbase, as a result, the average linux user is also less knowledgeable than other *nix users. And the linux world tends to ignore portability and other OSes as much as Microsoft does. The linux world seems to think that they *are* UNIX. As a result, you often find open source applications that *should* be portable, but aren’t. They will use the specific GNU make dialect, breaking compatibility with BSD make. And they will use specific linux paths to headers, although linux also has softlinks to more standard paths in the UNIX world. As a result, you often have to put in quite a bit of work to make open source projects compile on non-linux systems. However, once you’ve done that, they STILL compile on linux, so there is no reason why they wouldn’t have made it more portable and compatible in the first place. They just seem to be ignorant of the rest of the world.

      And yes, I just downloaded the Crysis 2 updates and played a bit. I was pleasantly surprised at how well my GTX460 handled the game with all the detail on. I was disappointed however to find that there isn’t a 64-bit binary (unlike Far Cry, Crysis 1 and Warhead/Wars). Apparently they only say you need a 64-bit OS because it allows 4 GB of memory per 32-bit process, where a 32-bit OS only allows 2 GB.
      Based on the benchmarks you linked to, I have to conclude that AMD is doing better in DX11 than nVidia though. Although nVidia has the absolute fastest option there, by a margin, you see that the Radeons move up a few places in the ranks, going from DX9 to DX11. Eg. the Radeon 5870 overtakes the GeForce 470 and nearly closes the gap with the GeForce 560Ti.

      • Ravi Teja G says:

        Dude, don’t generalize on things. There are all kinds of Linux users out there. Linux users are apparently humans too. Just like BSD have varying variety of users like idiots, stupids, psycos, morons, maniacs, etc :p. Linux has its share too.

        And by the way, we don’t use Linux because we hate Windows or we love UNIX. We love Linux because we love it, because it provides the most efficient Free and Open Source alternative(according to me by the way), because we love the community it provides, because everyday it grows more than any other OS in the world. It might have some drawbacks, sometimes serious ones. But we aren’t backing-out. We are going to stick with it, contribute to it and make it more better and more efficient.

        Since Linux and BSD are both UNIXes, we are supposed to be friends and not fight against each other. To an Apple-fanny girl or a rich fat Microsoft fan, we all look alike. Ever talked to an apple or microsoft fan about how BSD is an (efficient) OS too……. you will know! :p

      • Scali says:

        I can generalize all I want, for dramatic effect. You can complain about it all you want, and show your lack of comprehension.

        Also, no… BSD is an actual UNIX, linux is UNIX-like.

    • eko says:

      hehehehhe… you right man! I’m a gamer too… But I use linux too for virtualization. It depends on what we need…. :)

      sincerely

  4. Bomber Monkey says:

    Scali, I see you’re still a windbag. If you’re talking about ACLs on *nixes being less mature, you’re leaving out the likes of HP-UX and AIX, and the now-defunct DG-UX and IRIX, which have all had ACLs for nearly as long as VMS.

    There are very practical reasons that the BSDs and Linux haven’t put much effort into developing their ACLs: they’ve been hobbyist UNIXes for half their existence, and had other things to worry about. VMS was built for anal organizations from the beginning, and commercial UNIXes mainly had them to get red book division C so they could sell stuff to the US government. In fact, MS added ACLs to NT for the same reason, and until windows 2000/2003 they were ridiculed for doing a terrible job of it. SELinux and AppArmor were both better solutions the moment they appeared than windows ACLs were for the first decade of their existence.

    Also, Jed’s right: Tanenbaum > Silberschatz.

    • Scali says:

      If you’re talking about ACLs on *nixes being less mature, you’re leaving out the likes of HP-UX and AIX, and the now-defunct DG-UX and IRIX, which have all had ACLs for nearly as long as VMS.

      Clearly there are exceptions to every rule, but in this case we were mainly concentrating on the POSIX extensions that OS X/BSD/linux use (let’s not pull things out of context). By SuSE’s own admission, there are still a number of restrictions. See the link I posted.

      SELinux and AppArmor were both better solutions the moment they appeared than windows ACLs were for the first decade of their existence.

      Regardless of how good a solution they may or may not be, the mere fact that these solutions have been created is clear proof that the original UNIX design itself was not as ‘secure’ as some people seem to think. People make it sound like UNIX has always been about maximum security. And that therefore any UNIX-derivatives (mainly BSD, OS X, linux) are secure by default. Nothing could be further from the truth. VMS/Windows NT provide a better case for this (although still not a very strong one, but since people usually compare to Windows, well…).

      Also, Jed’s right: Tanenbaum > Silberschatz.

      I never denied that (I don’t even want to START a debate on ‘who is better’, it’s pointless. You do know the difference between opinion and fact, don’t you? Because both you and Jed have presented your opinion as fact), I just fail to see the relevance of such remarks (it’s just a fallacy). Which goes for you as well. If you want to post book reviews, post them on Amazon. In fact, I wonder why I even approved your post at all, and even reply to it.
      In fact, I am never interested in ‘which is better’, my angle is, and has always been, about finding facts. But, people like you can only see in black-and-white, so I don’t expect you to understand, or even try.

      Next time, try without the insults. And don’t try to make it sound as if you know me. I certainly have absolutely no idea who the heck you are, other than that you’ve made a lousy first impression.

      • Bomber Monkey says:

        Well, all the ones I mentioned are fully POSIX-compliant, which BSD and linux generally aren’t, so I don’t think I’m decontextualizing at all. I’m merely putting things in a more historical context. Also, ACLs never made it into an accepted POSIX standard. Most implementations are based on the NFSv4 implementation or home-brewed. It turns out that they’re just not a feature that’s in that much demand.

        And I agree that there’s no point in arguing authors, but I strongly suggest checking Tanenbaum out if you have a moment.

        I don’t really view calling someone a windbag as an insult. Some people don’t talk much, some people talk a lot, and listening is also subject to variation. You just happen to land on an interesting spot on those continua. As for knowing you, I was a #c4n op back in the earlier days of #win32asm.

      • Scali says:

        Well, all the ones I mentioned are fully POSIX-compliant, which BSD and linux generally aren’t, so I don’t think I’m decontextualizing at all.

        Well, I think you are contradicting yourself here.
        Nevertheless, as I have already said to Jed in the previous blog-comments: the problem with the POSIX API is that it is not built with security attributes in mind. So even though you may have ACL support in the filesystem, and ‘everything is a file’, you still lack some control there. Which is where something like SELinux or AppArmor comes in, which is very OS-specific, which means we’ve strayed WAY from the ‘UNIX design’-topic that originally started the discussion, and this path need not be pursued further.

        Also, ACLs never made it into an accepted POSIX standard.

        Yes, the SuSE link in my blog speaks of a POSIX draft, and goes into this subject somewhat.

        And I agree that there’s no point in arguing authors, but I strongly suggest checking Tanenbaum out if you have a moment.

        I already said I have read some of Tanenbaum’s books. Just because I mention this one book doesn’t mean I haven’t read any others.
        It reminds me of what one professor told us back in the day… He said: “Well, you probably all use Google to search the web, right? And I think that we probably all agree that Google is the best search engine, right?
        Well, but what about the others? Just because they are not as good or popular as Google, doesn’t mean that they’re useless.”
        Then he demonstrated what a search looks like if you take the results, and filter out the ones that Google would give you. This was very interesting. In a way you were filtering ou the ‘Google bias’ of the search results. Instead of landing on the articles that everyone else also read, when searching for that topic, you got the ones that were overlooked by most people.

        I feel the same way about this situation: Yes, Tanenbaum’s books are very good. But you should try reading some others sometimes, they may focus on other subjects. Silberschatz has a really nice case study of a few popular kernels, including Windows NT and linux. It’s almost a direct comparison, which I think is more appropriate in this case than Tanenbaum’s approach.

        I don’t really view calling someone a windbag as an insult.

        Well I do. It means that someone doesn’t have anything interesting to say. You are entitled to your opinion ofcourse, but I don’t think it’s a good conversation-starter. Also, my blog enjoys a modest popularity, so apparently it is interesting enough to a certain audience.

        As for knowing you, I was a #c4n op back in the earlier days of #win32asm.

        To speak with the words of the infamous Captain Jack Sparrow: “… But you HAVE heard of me”

      • Scali says:

        I was just thinking though… Quite a coincidence that both you and Jed have read both Tanenbaum and Silberschatz. Yet neither picked up on the case study in Silberschatz that would be quite appropriate here.
        You HAVE read Silberschatz, haven’t you? Or is the Tanenbaum-thing just a case of name-dropping, appeal-to-tradition etc? The book everyone (yes including me) ‘knows’ you *should* be reading. Just like everyone ‘knows’ that UNIX is the most secure OS…?

  5. Bomber Monkey says:

    Admittedly, I seem to have caught you at a low point in your blog. And most of what I heard of you wasn’t the kind of thing that you’d tend to want said. So I guess it’s a contemporary american kind of fame.

    Also, the debian document you linked is from 2003 and refers to 2.4 kernels; things have changed a LOT. I reasonably presume that with devfs and procfs and 2.6 kernels, most of the limitations mentioned in that document have been addressed.

    • Scali says:

      Admittedly, I seem to have caught you at a low point in your blog.

      Depends on how you look at it. This post is among the most popular this week.

      So I guess it’s a contemporary american kind of fame.

      Yes, and I’m not even American, so I guess my allure is international!

      Also, the debian document you linked is from 2003 and refers to 2.4 kernels; things have changed a LOT. I reasonably presume that with devfs and procfs and 2.6 kernels, most of the limitations mentioned in that document have been addressed.

      Yes, I am well aware of the date. Some things may have changed, other things are still very much relevant: The point you made about ACLs not being accepted as a POSIX standard, and implementations being based on the NFSv4 standard is in there, for example.
      Some of the limitations *I* have mentioned go well beyond the scope of this document however.
      At the very least, it gives an interesting historical context of ACL support in linux and related OSes.

  6. Pingback: Why I don’t use linux (and why you shouldn’t either) | Scali's blog

  7. Linux is just a learning curve. In windows everything just works but in linux there are hiccups with plugins, and everything in general is just slow.

    Fonts are also hard to see, drives are hidden. People say ‘rtfm’, in windows there is no need to.
    I am not against windows but that OS is unstable and full of security holes no matter how many times its updated.

    see: http://todayscontroversy.wordpress.com/

    • Scali says:

      I’ve done plenty of blog posts on why Windows is certainly not less stable and less secure than other OSes.

      • I agree with you about why windows is not stable and unsecure but my attempts at throwing away windows and using Ubuntu itself has created a learning curve. Its difficult to find things and get some work done. I think plugins are an issue perhaps only in Firefox. Even going to the adobe website resulted in plugins which dont exist for linux which is frustrating and grinds things to a halt.

      • Scali says:

        The short version is: Ubuntu is not a replacement for Windows, so anyone who tries to use it as such, will find plenty of problems.

        A bit more in detail on what you say about Adobe… The problem with linux is that it’s just a kernel. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of different companies/organizations that bundle the linux kernel with third-party software in order to create a complete OS.
        All these different variations make it virtually impossible for software developers to support them, especially with closed-source software (when the software is distributed in sourcecode-form it is generally easier to compile it on the target system and make it work, and if required, the linux distributor can patch the code to make it work).
        This is probably the main reason why there is very little commercial software available.

        On Windows, nearly all software is distributed in binary form (even most open source software), and there are very few compatibility problems between different versions of Windows.

      • With all the good things I been hearing about it Linux/Ubuntu, after all this time I thought finally I could ditch windows and move on to a life with no instability and no insecurity…looks like i got into more trouble than good. Now, having a second opinion.

        So, far my opinion is, there is only one thing: Nice interface.

        Its a change, with a learning curve but maybe I’ll give it a few more days, see how it goes but unsure about it. For the moment its like a testing ground for poking around in the dark.

      • Scali says:

        Most things people say about linux are simply half-truths or lies.
        Also, if you are having stability issues with Windows, you’re doing it wrong, basically.
        Sure, the DOS-based versions of Windows were horrible… But the NT-versions never had a lot of stability problems. And nobody uses the DOS-based versions anymore in 2012, so really, Windows stability is such a non-issue these days.

      • I’m not using dos, recently had upgraded to windows 7 from xp with a new dell machine. Even then i managed to crash the machine a few times but overall its much better than all the earlier version of windows.

      • Scali says:

        Well, both Windows XP and 7 have rock-solid stability, as long as you aren’t using unreliable hardware and drivers.
        I’m pretty sure your problems are either related to hardware or a suspect driver.
        I have rarely had stability issues, ever since I moved to Windows NT4 around 1997-1998. When I did, it was never the OS itself. And that is tons of different installation on tons of different hardware. I’ve had machines that would not BSOD in years of intense usage.

      • do you use linux/ubuntu ? how did you find it ? im thinking of deleting ubuntu and installing either mint or mandrake.

      • Scali says:

        I have used Ubuntu and Mint on occasion, but I don’t use linux on a daily basis. Mint is based on Ubuntu, and I found the two to be very much alike, although it seemed that Ubuntu was configured slightly better out-of-the-box, in terms of performance. At least, for my system and my usage.

        I use FreeBSD myself, instead of linux. But I’m not sure if I’d recommend that to people who are not happy about Ubuntu’s userfriendliness :)
        You could try PC-BSD, it’s a distribution based on FreeBSD, but like Ubuntu, it is aimed more at desktop users/beginners.

  8. Ravi Teja G says:

    you can cry like a crow as linux ascends into the best OS on the planet. hatred is not good for anything except for destruction. stop hating and start loving linux because there is nothing more lovable than it in the world.

    • Scali says:

      Yea, whatever… Wake me up when linux becomes a serious alternative for most of the things I do… such as using multiple high-resolution videocaptures, streamed live over multiple GPUs with realtime warping/shading applied, and output to multiple outputs, simultaneously, synced to eachother, to the music, and whatnot.

      • Ravi Teja G says:

        Are you saying FreeBSD has advanced/superior graphics drivers/infra-structure than linux? If i am not wrong, you are still using “Binary Blobs”. Atleast linux is trying to implement open source drivers. As open as it can get.

        Last time I checked, FreeBSD dri infrastructure is not even what you call use-able.

        http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTA1MzA

        Its decades(pun) since they started development on it. Can you please let me know how many new features have been added recently to freebsd and compare it with how many have been added to linux? Lines of code change?

        From here on freebsd will only play catch up with Linux. But it never will catch up. I am not against FreeBSD or something. But user community around linux is much much bigger than freeBSD. so it is only natural!

        If you are talking about windows, we are not a company that can burn billions of dollars on search engines or raise anti-trust against genuine companies/competitors. We are not so cruel either. Neither does linux cost 5000 bucks(in my country) for a home version. For what it is, it is far more superior than anything else.

      • Scali says:

        Obviously FreeBSD is just as poor as any other *nix when it comes to graphics. Not sure why you’re saying that linux is developing open source drivers, since all the work is being done under the Xorg and MesaGL projects. FreeBSD uses the exact same software, so as far as open source drivers go, they’re 99% the same.

        And obviously I would argue that FreeBSD is more open than any GPL-licensed software, including linux.

        Then apparently I have to point out that open source drivers developed by independent parties for something like graphics cards are utterly useless. GPU internals are closely guarded trade secrets, so obviously you are never going to write any half-decent driver outside the GPU company.
        Intel is the only one who develops their official drivers as open source, the rest is useless. Always use the binary drivers from the GPU vendor. And always buy nVidia (not that you have much of a choice for FreeBSD, since nVidia is the only one with a FreeBSD driver. But for linux, nVidia is also way better… not in the least part because they have written a significant replacement of the Xorg interface into their driver… so not sure why you want to bring DRI into the discussion as being a good thing).

        Also, it’s mostly linux playing catch-up to FreeBSD. Most of the effort put into linux goes to waste because of poor design decisions. FreeBSD gets a lot of things right the first time, where linux receives lots of patches to remove bottlenecks and other artificial limits introduced because of poor design at an earlier stage.
        Take the scheduler for example, not too long ago, linux had a complete scheduler replacement… Before that, it had pretty horrible scaling beyond a handful of CPUs and/or threads/processes. With the new scheduler it could finally scale somewhat like FreeBSD has done for years already.

        Please, stop talking like you have half a clue about these things.

  9. Ravi Teja G says:

    99% same code!!!! exactly. and I am talking about the rest 1%. So FreeBSD cant even get that 1% right faster than what linux does. What a shame?

    How exactly is FreeBSD more open than linux? I know what you mean. but listen to this…. Because of its licence type i can take freebsd and make it completely closed source(my version). lol. how open it is! You cant do that with linux, what has to stay open will always stay open in linux. Example: Apple’s MacOS and android.

    You are missing out AMD(aka ATI), who are doing great amount of contribution to open source graphics drivers. Google has been helping with intel graphics drivers too. I am sure imagination technologies, qualcomm, ARM, samsung and the likes(embedded GPUs) will come to the table soon. If you havent noticed qualcomm, ARM and samsung have already started some work.

    Atleast they got it(scheduler) fixed. FreeBSD’s implementation of threads still suck. And most of the applications today try to take big advantage of threads. Linux supports more hardware(like you pointed out you had to go with only nvidia) and newer hardware. Freebsd is no where near bleeding edge when compared to linux.

    • Scali says:

      Exactly, BSD-licensed code is open even to closed-source developers. Which is why TCP/IP is such a success-story, for example. You can’t do that with linux, lol!

      For the rest, not sure if trolling or stupid…

  10. Appu Sajeev says:

    @ravi teja
    You seem to be like just another Linux fanatic I see everyday. Blind and close-minded. Open up your minds first and then speak about open source.

    @scali
    I would like to share my personal experience and opinion with you. Whenever I meet someone who preaches this linux-better-than-windows propaganda, I ask them what is it that is so special about Linux and they say “ITS OPEN SOURCE, CODE CAN BE READ BY ANYONE “. Then I ask, “IF SO, HAVE YOU EVER BOTHERED TO LOOK AT LINUX KERNEL SOURCE, OR ANY OTHER OPEN SOURCE CODE FOR THAT MATTER?”. The silence at the other end says it all.

    From my experience, *most* people use Linux(and express their hatred for Windows whenever they can) because they think its a cool thing to do. They think it makes them geeks and different. I bet they don’t even know the true spirit of open source.

    And I don’t really understand when people say Linux is always more STABLE, RELIABLE and FASTER than windows. I use Windows 7 and have found it the best Windows ever(personal opinion) let alone some compatibility issues with older software. Its fast and reliable. And all those open source softwares like VLC, Firefox etc work just fine on Windows.

    I have also worked with Ubuntu and my experience hasn’t been all too well. Its clumsy. I don’t like the idea of doing an ‘insmod’ every time I want to turn on my wireless card. Lack of proper drivers is a serious issue.

    Its true, it features the almighty gcc(then again you have MingW) inbuilt and is well suited for development under certain conditions.
    Linux kernel is a great supplement for a person to learn OS theory and system programming( I love Linux so much that way). But Linux has a lot of catching up to do if it has to make an impact on a common user.

    “GPU internals are closely guarded trade secrets, so obviously you are never going to write any half-decent driver outside the GPU company.”
    Perfectly said.

    I have no personal issues with Linux community, I only have problem with their attitude. I hope someday, they learn to appreciate and accept things.

    • Scali says:

      I don’t think bundled software is a fair advantage of linux distros. There’s lots of free/open source software for Windows as well, but Microsoft couldn’t bundle it even if they wanted to. When you sell a commercial product, and have such a large marketshare, different rules apply.
      Nevertheless, Visual Studio Express is a free download.

      As for learning… I already covered that in an earlier blog: http://scalibq.wordpress.com/2011/07/06/source-code-is-not-documentation/
      Also, you should always learn at least two competing technologies, to get a better insight in the technology, and see the strong and weak points of each design.

  11. Ravi Teja G says:

    @appu haha. you seem to be another widowz or apple fan girl. why dont you stop making assumptions that everyone who uses linux are geeks and they have bad attitude? my eyes are wide open and i regret why they are…. i will close my eyes rather than reading your stupid comments. i dont have intelligence nowhere what you will expect from a geek. i am a normal guy who eats healthy diet everyday with huge interest on computers and love linux.

    Apart from linux being open source, there are many other things that are attractive in linux,

    1) I love exploring operating systems and i love the fact that i can see, change and experience the change with linux. the same applies to other great open source projects like freebsd. There are numerous books like lka, ulk, etc that give better insight about design decisions and architectural details made in linux. can you do the same with windows? lol. all you can do is write efficient malware! I am glad that you agreed with that point too. this is one of the most important point where linux is awesome.

    2) since you have code to see and modify, all geeks are attracted to open source solutions like linux, freebsd, etc. these OSes are built by the geeks anyway, if not how the hell do you think it is even remotely possible to match/out perform the OS that has the most monopolist/evil corporate empire behind it to burn billions of dollars on it.

    3) its not only geeks that use linux, if you think every person who graduates from college is a geek, i cant help it. But i can tell you i have convinced many mechanical, electrical and civil engineers to use linux. they love it. though it gives them hard time sometimes. we have to accept that open source solutions are not as stable sometimes as windows. “sometimes”.

    4) how many times have you reinstalled windows in past three months. i dont know about you, may be you have super magical stable windows(how much did you pay for it? your entire fortune?). i am not a geek, but i do know how to install operating systems and many of my college colleagues come to me. i have to tell you, windows users change their OSes atleast twice a month if they are *lucky*. opps malware, opps virus, opps my windows stopped booting, opps anti-virus program deleted what seemed to be a legal system file, opps windows 7 and vista dont run properly on my resonably modern PC, opps only thing i can do on my windows machine is shut it down by long pressing power button, and a lot more opps. I have installed my ubuntu 1.5 years ago and have been peacefully upgrading it since then. before that i had a stable fedora and still have it on my other partition.

    5) linux might not be as stable as windows *sometimes if the user has atleast no basic brains*. but its is far more stable, secure, reliable and efficient per cost. it magically has infinite stablity, security, reliablity and efficiency per cost. anything divided by zero has to be infinite according to my linux calc. IMHO linux is not far beyond/matches/sometimes far superior to windows even excluding that cost component.

    6) have i ever seen linux code? are you kidding me? have you even tried clicking my gravatar and reading my blog? i am linux device driver programmer at bosch. i even tried playing with linux scheduler but it always worked infirior to CFS. I already told you i am *not a geek*. you don’t read source code, doesn’t mean everybody else don’t. we dont stuff source code infront of everybody’s eyes and ask them to read. if you have patience and interest read. otherwise give yourself some peace and stop talking bad about open source.

    7) faster windows? lol. i can modify linux the way i want and make it as faster and light weight as it can get. can you do the same with windows? lets see. are you ready for for the benchmarks. your system vs mine? yay i love it.

    8) linux has had inferior graphics architecture for years. but DRI2 framework is far more superior and supports awesome graphics acceleration support. its the best architecture you can get. we stupid open source programmers(according to you windows guys) can only provide superior graphics stack/architecture support. the actual drivers for GPUs have to be implemented by vendors or reverse-engineered by some good kind hearted ppl. anyways since intel and AMD already have teams working on open source GPU drivers. Nvidia is the only black-sheep here. i hope they join the good cause too. anyways open source nouveau drivers are stable. here are some references,

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nouveau_linux_stable&num=1

    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTA2MDU

    9) I wish you good luck with your metro interface in windows 8 :p. I am sorry that you have to use what microsoft decides you have to use. i am sorry that you have little freedom and you have even more little to tweak and put it the way you want :(.

    10) i am sorry that ubuntu gave you trouble the first time you wanted to. but open source products are not known to work the best the first time. but give it some patience and trust it will surely work the way you want. there are numerous channels on irc, lots of forums and lots of people who are really willing to help you out. and most importantly we don’t take a buck!

    P.S try linux mint. i love it. it makes things lot more simpler. linux has a lot of catching up to do. so does iOS, windows or freebsd. stability, reliability and security are a process. you cant build a product and say it will be stable for ever(a mistake *some* linux fans make, not all). the good thing is linux fixes its defects faster than you expect. for now linux is more secure than windows, partly because there are less malware/virus avalibale for linux, partly because you need a good technical understanding to use linux which makes you educated against virus too, because linux hardly makes stupid decisions like password less admin accounts, default open ports, etc.

    have fun!

    • Scali says:

      1) Just because you don’t know about Windows books and documentation doesn’t mean it isn’t there. It just shows how ignorant linux people are to anything non-linux. There are tons of resources that document Windows internals very well. There’s books like the Inside Windows series, there’s the MSDN obviously, and then there’s various blogs and other resources, such as Channel9, or things like The Old New Thing. And then there’s the third-party resources.

      2) I’d hate to burst your bubble, but Linus Torvalds is a university dropout. His design for linux was actually not very well-accepted by the academic world, as expressed by Andrew Tanenbaum, a wellknown authority on OS design.
      Likewise, you should read what Bill and Lynne Jolitz have to say about the original UNIX, and their plans to improve on the original design in 386BSD (many of those improvements never made it into Free/Open/NetBSD).
      I don’t get why people think linux and BSD are such great OSes. They are mostly hacked together, either by inexperienced programmers, or because there was not enough time to implement things the right way.

      3) So you convince people to use solutions that are less stable, and give them a hard time! Congratulations!

      4) Stop trolling. Claims about Windows being unstable or needing reinstalls is so 1995.

      5) Indeed, no price means that none of these metrics make any sense. Here’s a metric that DOES make sense however: the amount of time you have to invest to get the job done. This is often higher with linux because you have to tinker a lot with poorly supported hardware, software, and all sorts of quirky details. As they say: linux is only free if your time is worthless.

      6) Have you ever studied Windows internals? I get the distinct impression that you don’t have half a clue how Windows is designed. Much like Jed Smith.

      7) Yea, the old ricer argument… Sad part is, you need to tune/patch a lot of parts of linux because they aren’t half as good as Windows out-of-the-box. Question is: once you’ve super-tuned your linux, is it any faster than Windows? Not necessarily.

      8) Try some arguments first… Why would it be superior to Windows graphics. Heck… see 6), do you even know how the Windows graphics system works in the first place? I get the distinct impression that you don’t, and you are basically talking out of your arse, like Jed Smith. You can’t make such claims without backing them up with technical arguments.

      Also, you are *wrong* about linux being more secure. It may be *safer*, but *not* more secure. See this blog: http://scalibq.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/os-xsafer-by-design/
      And, if linux is fixed so fast, then why is it still so far behind after 20 years of ‘fast fixing’? I’ve been hearing for 20 years that linux is going to take over the world… but it never happened, and I doubt it ever will.

      • Ravi Teja G says:

        1) its obvious that windows has its share of architecture books too. but can you match the books to kernel source code and see how it gets affected when you actually change the code. this point of your is really stupid. thats the advantage only open source brings to the world. i was talking about availablity of source code and books that complement and help to understand it better from a kernel hacker’s point of view.

        6) lol. why do i even have to study windows internals to be a linux device drivers developer. have you gone nuts? lol. i get a feeling that you have no idea what software development is. how does your 6th point correspond to my 6th point and how does it relate to appu’s point that nobody reads linux code. idiot! prove that you have read windows kernel code and associated it with windows kernel internals books and talk back. i can prove how linux scheduler works, how context switching works(both ARM and x86), what happens until init program is given control along with source code, file name and line no.. can you do that with windows? have you ever studied linux internals?

        2) Andrew Tanenbaum?? seriously. that stupid teacher whose predictions have gone terribly wrong? who cant even think what route hardware will take? lol. rotfl. microkernels will rule the world? in which retarded world? where is minix? anyone?

        3) thanks. atleast i saved them from ever increasing malware and virus threat. how stable is windows(+virus+malware) when compared to linux? lol not even close. an insertion of single pen drive can bring down a whole system. lol. its like HIV. how stable. microsoft claimed that they have fixed malware issue with windows 7. their super annoying “do you trust the software?” dialog box. now the windows world is free from malware lol. microsoft is the best at fixing things rofl.

        4) it was back then in 1995 and is so true till now. i never got to use windows in 1995. i never had a chance. should have sucked more then and has only managed to suck more and more now. i only use in today and talk about only now. FYI, malware attacks in BOSCH is a serious stuff. it can highly defame an employe. windows machines are denied USB access, you cant access facebook or anyother social site or forum which has potential malware spreading threat. still lots of computers get affected and have to be cleaned out the same day. and i remember all those poor windows guys who come begging to me to wipe out/format their pen drives in linux. really the days have changed. or did they?

        5) i strongly disagree with this. this was the case few years back not now. you can install a copy of linux mint or ubuntu and go ahead with it. as productive windows. they are highly stable and need less tweaking if you dont want to. anyways they are surely not for *stupids*. if you have spent hours fixing it, you must be an idiot. i have never done so myself. it always worked out of box for me. unsupported hardware??? do you know linux supports more hardware out-of-box than windows? in windows you have to search the internet, torrent, beg the vendor, go searching your lost device driver CD to support hardware, linux supports most of it out of the box. lol. i have never installed a driver for linux, it gets installed when you install the OS. with windows, you have to spend a hell lot of time installing your OS and then thrice that time searching for the driver online and after than numerous failed attempts to install drivers and software. instead linux provides a repository where you can find, search and install all software easily. it even resolves your architecture, CPU bit width, current supported version for you. all you have to do is type in the app name and press install.

        7) you dont have to patch. are you still in 1990s? install a copy of ubuntu or mint. remove service you dont need from getting started(use init directories in /etc). stop unncecessary process from starting if you dont want. remove heavy weight feature rich DE like gnome or kde and isntall light weight simple but beautiful DE like lfce, etc. these are just for the starters. they dont even take any time. if you think they will, then you dont even know anything about configuration. I bet i can tweak linux to outperform your windows machine. are you game enough? we can arrange a benchmark fight. FYI there are some distros out there that do some work for you out-of-the box, like google chrome OS and ubuntu supports much better boot time and shutdown time and you can still bring it down if you want. lubuntu is super light weight. how many times do you visit your task manager in windows lol. how many times do you have to kill your “explorer” process?

        8) and 6) do you know how windows graphics systems work? how linux graphics systems work? how can you tell windows graphics systems beat linux. on what aspects. whats the difference? where linux lacks? with how much performance difference? the difference between linux and windows graphics architecture? come out with numbers or stop accusing others. dont talk like you know them all. go to hell.

        it has taken over the world. whats on your mobile? my mobile runs awesome android, my tablet runs android and a billion other devices on the world runs android. 5% of PCs shipped last year runs linux. All computers in my work place runs on ubuntu. facebook phone is based on linux. google chrome OS is based on linux. it has taken over the world and it will only spread more. compare it to bsd which has been in existence from 1977 lol. why do you think most of the servers run on linux instead of windows? how did Redhat being a open source company become a billion dollar company? it might not matter to you, but it does matter to companies safety/cost, security/cost, stability/cost, etc.

        india is one of the fastest growing software destinations in the world. i can see that atleast here the market is full of linux device driver, linux application programmer jobs. you can hardly find jobs for freebsd or windows atleast not in system programming or embedded field. that shows how fast linux is growing. go to linux foundations page and see for yourself how many partners it has.

      • Scali says:

        1) Again, your lack of knowledge of Windows is showing. You don’t always need source code to reconfigure a kernel and see how it behaves. Aside from that, what point is there to modifying a kernel? That only works when your software only has to run on your own machines. You can’t expect everyone to use your modified kernel.

        2) Really now? Tanenbaum’s books on OS design and networking are still highly regarded, especially by the open source community, ironically enough. Some more irony in the fact that the linux kernel has been moving to a more modular design. Tanenbaum was right all along.

        4) Nope, it’s not true at all. In 1995, most people used DOS-based versions of Windows. They can’t be compared to the NT-based Windows. I’ve been using NT since 1996, and basically never have to reinstall Windows. Either the people at BOSCH are incredibly stupid (can’t configure a network of Windows machines to have safe policies (eg, you can easily disable execution of files from USB drives), and don’t know that you shouldn’t download and install everything you find on the web), or you are just trolling.

        5) It all depends on what you want to do. As I said before. Linux simply can’t do the things that we develop software for. It may support more hardware on paper, but that’s rather useless as most of that hardware is seriously outdated. The hardware that you WANT to be supported, either isn’t, or isn’t properly standardized (such as video capture devices, or even something as simple as wireless internet).

        6) You may not want to admit it, but there’s a lot you can learn from Windows. As I said, you should at least study two competing technologies to really get a deeper insight. A one-sided story is never good. Aside from that I said you need to study Windows before you try to criticize it. Reading comprehension.
        And yes, I have studied linux internals, obviously. Unlike you, I am not just talking out of my arse about things I have no clue about.

        7) I wish you were right, but sadly you aren’t. Ever heard of Ingo Molnar? He developed some kernel modifications which bring the latency down. For various things, such as realtime audio processing, you need these kernel patches. There are special audio-distributions of linux which use them.
        Other OSes such as OS X or Windows don’t require specially modified kernels for this. Their standard kernels have low enough latency to get < 1 ms latency on realtime audio processing.

        8) Yes I do (you might want to read some more of my blog posts to see who you are dealing with, graphics and lowlevel stuff are pretty much 'my thing', and as you can see, I know my way around a variety of platforms, including DOS, Windows, linux, FreeBSD, OS X, iOS, Android and even the venerable Amiga), but you were the one making the claims on which is superior, so you are the one who has to provide the technical arguments to back up your claims. I don't see any arguments.

      • Ravi Teja G says:

        I thought linus graduated from uni of helsinki.
        and are you talking about high school drop outs? remember bill gates? steve jobs? Gautam Adani? all your educations cant beat the natural talent. i dont argue that dont graduate but dont underestimate those who havent.

    • Klimax says:

      Windows Internals, blog by Larry Osterman, books on driver development (quite few out there) and so on…

      See:

      https://blogs.msdn.com/b/larryosterman/

      https://blogs.msdn.com/b/ntdebugging/

      https://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/ (+book and associated two free bonus chapters)

      http://blogs.msdn.com/b/e7/

      http://blogs.msdn.com/b/mgrier/

      https://blogs.technet.com/b/markrussinovich/

      https://blogs.technet.com/b/askperf/

      And I am pretty sure I am missing some…
      Of Channel 9 I suggest http://channel9.msdn.com/shows/Going+Deep/Arun-Kishan-Farewell-to-the-Windows-Kernel-Dispatcher-Lock/

      Must be nice not knowing a thing. BTW: WDDM, WDM,KMDF and UMDF is good to know when discussing Windows since Vista…

    • Ravi Teja G you are typical rude, mindclosed linux user, who thinks his ugly OS is best in the world. Why are you all linux guys made from one crappy gauge? all the same idiots…

  12. Ravi Teja G says:

    1) Seriously what the hell are you talking about? I said from kernel hackers point of view not to distribute to others. Just to experiment, learn and contribute. have you even read what i posted? waste of time.

    learning kernel without looking at source code? i am talking about understanding the underlying kernel, how it works and tweaking it. and yes you surely need source code for that. read what i have written. I have even mentioned the word *kernel hacker* i guess. a humble request, read what is written.

    2) haha. none said tanenbaum books are not famous. but there are many other books equally reputed and awesome. but tanenbaums arguments are utterly stupid when comes to linux. he was just jealous when it comes to linux. if not really stupid.

    Linux moving towards tanenbaum’s philosophy? really? thats what you know or make out of it? lol. Making linux modular and adding dynamically loadable module facility doesnt make it even remotely micorkernel or tanenbaums’s dream kernel. linus was never wrong on that. adding dynamically loadable functionality gave a death blow to tanenbaum’s arguments. i am not against microkernel architecture though. but i dont think monolithic kernel is a wrong decision. it brings in a lot of speed to the kernel. which is highly important. linus intelligently proved how one can make monolithic kernel efficient and modular too.

    4) haha seriously? lol. you have never been affected my malware on your windows system? how the hell is your stupid safe policy going to help you against malware that spreads through USB, network folders, from email, embedded in legitimately looking software, etc? and malware dont knock your doors and tell you “hey i am malware. install me.” bosch does have brilliantly done protection infrastructure. its a prestigious company and not another chinese company. banning social sites is just a preventive measure. you dont need social sites to bring down windows PC. its lot more simpler than that. we can do something, give eachother control of our machines through skype and see who brings down whose system first. so you are saying you have to install safe policy rules, disable execution from USB, etc, etc to make windows safe. and where does your arguments that windows works out of the box and one can only set up linux for free if one’s time is worthless gone? lol. haha. and inspite of doing all that, believe me, even a simple malware can intrude that system. i have never seen a photo shop, computer shop, stalls which have windows machines without malware or virus. never really. i dont troll just for an argument. its the truth, if its not who knows i might have liked windows a little.

    5) thats a really wrong argument. IMHO linux supports more hardware out-of-box. almost all wireless internet and video capture devices are supported. those that are not, have binary blobs from the vendors, just run “additional drivers” application. and if you want a seamless experience, buy a PC that is advertised ubuntu-ready or linux ready. here is a list,

    http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/desktop/

    but IMO distros like ubuntu and mint run farely well on most computers if not all.

    6) you are guessing that i havent studied windows internals. i am not an expert but i am not a novice too.

    7) i wasnt talking about patching kernel. i was talking about tweaking fully furnished distros like ubuntu, mint or fedora vs tweaking windows. i was saying i can tweak a linux or freebsd distro more than what you can do with a osx or windows. i can change DE, I can change window decorators, i can completely strip off GUI and work with only cli. there are even distros which do that out-of-box. can you strip-out metro when it comes in windows 8. if not metro there will always be something in proprietary OSes that annoys you but hard to get rid off. But your point takes it to other dimension, a geek or a fairly proficient programmer can modify the kernel sources, application sources, recompile and build a system fairly easily. tweaking and configuration to its extreme. thanks for pointing that out too. you rock :)!

    technical discussions, arguments, fights are always so much fun!

    • Scali says:

      Whatever… Clearly you are too stupid to even understand the points I’m making. Aside from that you spread blatant lies, and have made zero technical points, because you are simply too clueless.

      Thanks for proving once again that you have to be ignorant to be a linux zealot.
      The more you know about software and hardware technology, the less excited you’ll be about linux. You might see the light eventually.

    • Klimax says:

      There’s much more to management of WIndows and various policies which can hardblock virtually anything then you even spotted from massive distance. (Something like you being on Mars at best…)

      At best your knowledge of Windows is close to zero if not neagtive. Otherwise you wouldn’t spout such BS and nonsense.

      • Ravi Teja G says:

        @klimax
        may be. but how many systems are configured that way. i have worked at ibm, bosch and qualcomm. and none of their systems are configured the way you have listed. a single pen drive insertion and the system never boots again. such a pity that windows has so many awesome facilities that you say and the world reputed companies dont use them. leave about corporates, i have never come across any personal computer that has been configured the way you say. instead on my linux system, its all pre-configured with selinux and iptables. even without them from the begining you cant run virus as root. even before logging into linux, users get instructed to think 10 times before executing a command as root. in windows, user use admin as just another user account. yes windows has made horrible security mistakes in the past, some it has fixed and it took it so long to. talk to a genuine hacker and you will know which OS is easy to take down. and go to “anonymous’s” irc channels and ask them why they use linux and why they ask you to use linux.

      • Klimax says:

        Active Domain => almost mandatory (every AD I saw uses GPOs)
        Without AD it is generally small org often without good tech staff (like external consultants and such) who doesn’t know about it or how to properly use. (If they need it)

        Autorun is on W7 no longer active and AFAIK not reenabled.

        BTW: W7 enterprise and ultimate editions have Applocker – whitelisting of programms. (Good to have, when malware, Chrome or other not allowed app comes…) Previous versions had only blacklist.

        If somebody doesn’t know how to properly admin, then he should be out of that position as it is not difficult.

        Since Vista Admins by default are only standard users until they need to elevate priviledges and then they have to reauth for it to be granted. (XP was last system which for backwards compatibility with old software didn’t do so)

        BTW: Your info about security is severely outdated – update!
        Anonymous as source? Are you kiding me? They are mostly script kiddies with DDOS tool!

        “single pen drive insertion and the system never boots again”
        What the hell are you talking about?

        Many dialogs are not great idea.
        (See http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2006/05/26/608007.aspx )

        Note that I don’t believe you that big corps when using large Windows networks don’t have such lockdown in effect (when smaller orgs like my uni has so). I think you just don’t know a thing about it and so can’t spot its UI(or CLI commands) or know often subtle effects or blame them on Windows.

  13. appusajeev says:

    @scali
    Hes not worth an argument or debate. Hes a wannabe. At least our arguments are not rubbish or biased or pointless like his.

    I’d like to quote some of his words.

    “all you can do is write efficient malware”
    – typical Linux community attitude of looking down on anything non-Linux.

    “you can cry like a crow as linux ascends into the best OS on the planet.”
    -Wake up brother, its been 20 years.

    “why dont you stop making assumptions that everyone who uses linux are geeks”
    -Speaks volumes about your comprehension skills. I said most people who use Linux are wannabes, and you make a perfect example of that.

    “it magically has infinite stablity, security, reliablity and efficiency per cost. anything divided by zero has to be infinite according to my linux calc.”
    -I really appreciate your coming up with a new way for quantifying code quality thats gonna change the world.(In such a case, you’d gladly eat rotten bread offered for free. Infinite quality, right?). Also since you work for money, your code wont be having quality(oops quality per cost) at all because you earn money for that.

    “but tanenbaums arguments are utterly stupid when comes to linux. he was just jealous when it comes to linux. if not really stupid.”
    – typical immaturity (expected)

    “but open source products are not known to work the best the first time”
    -Why would someone want that? Why would someone want to take the hard route when an easier route exists.

    “in windows you have to search the internet, torrent, beg the vendor, go searching your lost device driver CD to support hardware”
    – I cant understand how a bosch employee is underestimating the importance of OEM drivers. In case you didnt know, you get stability and reliability in return. Plus reverse-engineering isnt perfect.

    “where linux lacks? with how much performance difference?”
    -Can you tell me any game with *decent* graphics. You have OpenGL right, yet there are no decent games. Why? There my friend, you will see the importance of genuine drivers.

    FYI, malware spreading through mass storage is not a Windows bug. Autorun is a feature introduced to make things easier. Its just being misused. And disabling it is way too easier than what I have to do to get my wireless card working.

    FYI, I work at Intel. We use Win 7 Enterprise Edition, which is perfect for our purpose. We have no issues of stability, reliability or malware because *we know what we are doing*. Besides, social networking sites arent blocked either.

    Ravi, I know you are gonna come up shouting with your *points* at this :)

    • Scali says:

      Indeed, any half-decent corporation has some professional system administrators who configure the network (regardless of what OS they use). In my freelancing days, I have worked at many organizations, from small to very large. They all had decent security policies. Some even extremely strict (eg, not even being able to plug in random machines on the network, but having to register the MAC with the IT dept first). Surely companies like IBM, Bosch and Qualcomm have a decent security policy set up.

      Also, drivers are not the whole story, as I already pointed out earlier.
      For example, I use a Blackmagic Intensity HDMI capture card. When I originally got it in 2006, it only supported Windows and OS X. Eventually Blackmagic started offering a linux driver as well. However, this driver implemented their own API, and as such it could only be used by their own software. There *finally* is a gstreamer wrapper for it now, but I think it was released only in Feb 2012, so some 6 years after the hardware was available!
      Also, it still is only gstreamer. As far as I know, there still is no video4linux support for the card, so only gstreamer-based applications will work.

      By contrast, the card has standard DirectShow support on Windows, and will work with any software that supports DirectShow… which is pretty much any capture software.

      Now, you see my problem… I develop software that uses capture devices. For Windows, I can just rely on DirectShow, and 99% of all hardware will work out-of-the-box. If I want, I can support custom APIs as well (Blackmagic has its own API on Windows as well), but I don’t have to. On linux, things are far more segmented, with multiple APIs, and spotty driver support. Various hardware just isn’t supported at all… Some hardware is supported, but only through their own API, some through video4linux, and some through gstreamer. I need to write a lot more redundant code, to support fewer devices than in Windows.

    • Ravi Teja G says:

      haha pours. you must be kidding. dont you?

      “all you can do is write efficient malware”
      that was a sarcasm. if you cant get it. go jump somewhere.

      “you can cry like a crow as linux ascends into the best OS on the planet.”
      -Wake up brother, its been 20 years.
      20 years is so little compared to eternal existence of human life on this planet. you will die, so will i but the time is going to continue and exist. if you are one of those lame 2012 believers, i cant help. but what gives you winduhs fans guts to claim if a thing hasnt caught up in 20 years wont catch up for ever. its you who have to wake up. one of my friend called, “look there is an awesome smart phone there”. another replied, “its not just awesome. its android. what else can be awesome” :D. yes linux has already conquered the computing space. by the way where are so called winduhs 7 mobiles(i am not claiming it wont catch up. it eventually will. i dont have windows fan’s pesimistic attitude). and servers? embedded systems? anyone? all automotive systems including bosch to ford use linux. heard of genivi, okl hypervisor?. windows embedded? does it still exist. are you talking about 20 years still. seriously are you dead or sleeping. because last time i heard dead cant be woken up :p.

      FYI: that convo is a joke. dont quote like you did before about malware stuff and call it some community attitude lol.

      -Speaks volumes about your comprehension skills. I said most people who use Linux are wannabes, and you make a perfect example of that.
      wannabies??!!?? you must be either seriously thinking too much about yourself or underestimating others. but why should i care. its your life, fcuk with it :p.

      -I really appreciate your coming up with a new way for quantifying code quality thats gonna change the world.(In such a case, you’d gladly eat rotten bread offered for free. Infinite quality, right?). Also since you work for money, your code wont be having quality(oops quality per cost) at all because you earn money for that.
      do you even read what others write. my point was linux has better performance/dollar efficiency. and at the end, i made the point that even without considering money, linux compares pretty decently against winduh or OSX. i dont work for money. i work because there are lots of good chicks here :p. just kidding. you are stating the obvious. i just pointed an advantage of using linux-money. i never said linux is inferior. GPU-vise it is a bit but the rest are not that bad or atleast comparatively not that bad.

      – typical immaturity (expected)
      haha. talk whatever. but where is minix. the operating system written by a genius. a college teacher worshiped by everyone couldnt even create a half descent OS but linus did. who is the hero here? dont tell us its balmer with his shiny bald head lol.

      -Why would someone want that? Why would someone want to take the hard route when an easier route exists.
      because it is so much fun experimenting with it. i love it. but there are some stable systems that do work out of the box. go for mint, if you are lazy and afraid to explore where things usually go wrong. easier route????……. easier route to malware you mean. yeah exactly. you are in the correct and easier route, enjoy the ride :p.

      – I cant understand how a bosch employee is underestimating the importance of OEM drivers. In case you didnt know, you get stability and reliability in return. Plus reverse-engineering isnt perfect.
      haha. you must set a standard on how companies recruit their employees. you must go to ibm, bosch, qualcomm, AMD and intel and tell them that they have made a really terrible choice. but i really dont know how i got selected, must have been repeated luck. remember dhoni. i am his brother. talking about stability and reliability again. malware malware virus virus. oh little windows user, dont cry. go away. reverse engg isnt perfect <== not always.

      -Can you tell me any game with *decent* graphics. You have OpenGL right, yet there are no decent games. Why? There my friend, you will see the importance of genuine drivers.
      openGL is not linux. though thats the only way and piece of software linux uses for its 3D acceleration/software rendering. you must understand that linux doesnt have many games because we dont play games. we do hard core research and fend off jerks like you all the time. kidding again(dont quote lol). know android? and how many games it has? more than winduhs 7 mango, i guess. microsoft is thinking about bringing android apps to windooz, how desperate are they? desktop linux has little games because it is not popular among gamers/we came to gaming party late. we spent much more time perfecting our core kernel :p. but nothing is late, we are catching up. here are some bench marks,

      http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ubuntu-oneiric-ocelot-benchmark-review,3121-21.html

      if openGL is used linux kicks window's butts on AMD and intel GPU. nvidia needs some work to do though. and fortunately its happening fairly fast. you may dream that it wont happen but it surely will. entire dri2 framework is well setup. gallium3d is replacing classical drivers in mesa. wayland is bringing direct rendering and seamless 3d graphics acceleration to linux desktops. its all exciting give it some time.

      everything is a feature that is exploited. none writes code to be exploited. when designing something, one should always consider what its consequences would be. architecting a bad code and later crying that the feature has been exploited is not what you call "stability and reliability".

      if you cant get your wireless card working, click "additional drivers". you will find something there. if you dont, try "ndiswrapper". if nothing works out, google. if that doesnt work out either, sell your lap and get a brand new "ubuntu" labelled one :p.

      bumper offer only for you: If you think windows works magically out of the box, why dont you try installing winXP on mobile arm devices? or windows 7 mango on my galaxy tab. i can install ubuntu or android on onmia or lumia. you wanna bet? and what about windows 7 on PS3, IBM powerPC & old MAC books, alpha, sparc, etc. linux runs on all of them and supports all the pheripherals that comes with the SoC.

      • Scali says:

        I shouldn’t reply anymore… but still… Everyone in the automotive industry uses linux?

        http://www.microsoft.com/windowsembedded/en-us/evaluate/windows-embedded-automotive-7.aspx

        Whoops!

        Also, in terms of OpenGL I’d say AMD has work to do. The Radeon 4870 is a faster card than the GTX260 on paper. Therefore it is very strange that it would only get 181 fps in Doom 3 on Windows, seeing that the slower GTX260 gets 213 fps (apparently the OS is not the problem here).
        It is also strange that the GTX260 outperforms the 4870 in Prey on both OSes.

      • Ravi Teja G says:

        this would be my last comment too. hopefully. (hope this statement wont end up like linus’ with tanenbaum :p)

        you should be in the automotive industry to know whats happening. seriously why will anyone use windows 7 when they get linux, androig, okl hypervisor all for free.

        reliable, secure, easily customizable, stable and plenty of linux device driver developers and system programmers in the market. when bosch moved to linux based car automotive infotainment system these were few of the reasons they specified. support from montavista has been really great. here are the list of companies who are behind it,

        http://www.genivi.org/genivi-members

        bmw, hundai, honda, nissan, renault, jaguar
        denzo, delphy, bosch, continental, mitsubshi
        thats too less :p.

        http://www.linaro.org/

        linaro has done really great work in stabilizing linux kernel for ARM(that run most of car infotainment systems, mobiles and embedded systems) SoCs. hands off to them!

        yes openGL(mesa) needs a lot of work. mesa doesnt even support ogl 3.1, leave about ogl 3.2, 3.3, 4.1 and 4.2. this should change soon if linux is to attract game developers and gamers. currently i am trying to do atleast something about it. still trying to figure out mesa’s head and tail :p.

        with love, never returning back,
        an another open source enthusiast.

        fight for the cause, never give up. contribute back to the society!

      • Scali says:

        You’re not an open source enthusiast. You’re a zealot.

      • Ravi Teja G says:

        whatever. i will support it and fight for its cause. atleast i am on the right side.

      • Scali says:

        Zealots always think they’re on the right side. Doesn’t mean they are.
        They also think they have to fight the other side… which might not even be against them in the first place, but they’re too blind to see. So their fights only destroy things.

  14. Klimax says:

    “FYI, malware spreading through mass storage is not a Windows bug. Autorun is a feature introduced to make things easier. Its just being misused. And disabling it is way too easier than what I have to do to get my wireless card working.”
    Since W7 and with patches for XP and Vista it no longer is automatic. AFAIK it always asks user.
    (As is done with any feature which gots misused and/or vector for attempted escalation of priviledges)

    • snemarch says:

      One slight problem, though: while generally disabled for removable storage devices, it’s still (iirc) enabled for CD-ROMs – and it’s possible for a pendrive to report itself as a CD-ROM class. The storage part of some USB 3g cellular modems do this to make it easier to install drivers. Can’t remember if it’s automatic AutoRun behavior, though, or it just activates the AutoPlay menu.

  15. RetroComputing says:

    I’ll never understand why Linux supporters, if Linux is so great, don’t offer objective info. on how it’s efficient, helps the end user, whatever – all I ever read when I encounter pro-Linux postings is mounds of abstract thinking about how it must be so great since it’s about “teh freedomz.” The only Linux distros I have some faith in are openSUSE and Linux Mint, but they still need to play catch-up for a couple of years before they become as user-friendly as Windows or OS X (still the occasional disappearing of menubars, windows, and so on, spoils the experience even in the best of Linux distros: the more obscure ones I won’t even bother with). By the way, I like your blog Scali.

    • Scali says:

      I think the problem is that OSes have matured too much in general. The differences are small and insignificant. Making OS debates rather useless in general. So we mostly see emotional arguments, not technical ones.

  16. @appu.
    I am from Malappuram. Do you know that most of my friends PC’s with windows needs a format every 2 weeks. Ravi is right all the mobile shops and computer centres format their computer every 2 days.
    If you dont, then I could show you that if you would pay a visit to me.

    Linux made me forget what a virus was.

    @scali

    I love unix and unix philosophies. And I also love linux which is called unix-like simply because
    they dont approve of it in Single UNIX Specification but adheres to majority of posix specifications.

    Whatever our differences, we are both part of or love unix(like).

    As Cited above to Windows Fan Boy and Apple Fan Girl, we look both the same.

    And look at the ratio of people going back to windows after coming to linux and those coming to linux from windows.

    Windows is just shit.

    Do you know that you are saying in many of your posts, things that we all know and are the basics. You are trying to show that you know more by saying all the basic things. you dont have to explain things to us.

    When you say your windows hasnt crashed, then either you are LYING or you have a copy of a MAGICAL WINDOWS, directly shipped by Bill gates himself.

    @appu and scali

    WHY IS IT THAT WINDOWS IS NOT POPULARLY FOUND IN SERVER OPERATING SYSTEM.

    If I may say so, Windows is the most ugly, utrocious crap and Microsoft is the those who pushes that crap.

    You think Windows scheduler is far more faster than Linux. Well then “This is a significant issue under Windows, where the user-mode overhead is about six times greater than that under Linux.[2]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_server.

    And dont start that I dont know the internals of Operataing Systems. I have personally developed for fun, an Operating System codenamed DECODE and am an active member of the OS dev community. Also I have read Tananbaum’s book. And My Os now boots off of a fairly general purpose USB fat32 bootloader (made by me for the OSDEV community). It has multiprocessing, multithreading, multiprocessor capabilities and stdin stdout stderr implemented. And I have ported gcc, nasm, binutils, newlib and exposes about 50 posix system calls including fork,et al.
    And I know a big deal of linux kernel internals which I learned when osdeving (as we call it).

    I am a self taught programmer and am the CEO of a new and small software company in Malappuram.

    I despise all those who say they have graduated from blah blah blah unless they really know a good deal about the subject.

    Everytime I use windows I get frustrated by how long it takes to get it accomplished. I dont know, it may just be me but I get headaches and time just goes on for completing something. These days I am rude to some of my friends who are basic PC users complaining about something which requires a format of windows.

    If you are saying that linux doesnt have drivers out of the box, then you can carry on saying that. Because ubuntu and Linux mint does have almost every single driver that you would ever require.

    I was a windows fan. But now I dont even have windows on my lap and on the 2 PCs. All windows has in addition to linux is in terms of games but that can be solved by wine which plays most if not all and designing and animation softwares. For all others linux serves the purpose.

    Windows is
    oh virus,
    oh malware,
    oh my windows already runs slow and runs even slower by running antivirus.
    oh copying takes more for antivirus softwares to scan.
    oh I wont plug Pen Drives because of getting affected
    oh I got affected.
    oh my windows simply crashes.
    oh my windows softwares are simplay a crap (Refer to a far better unix philosophy)
    oh MS supports .net which they said was cross compatible but was a Lie (refer C++ and Qt)
    oh windows doesnt have more workspaces (desktops) by default
    oh Windows looks like shit when compared to plasma desktop or unity.
    oh windows cannot be made to run on slower computers.
    oh It cost more money

    Linux is
    No Antivirus, No crashes, Stable (debian) , used on servers, has more multiprocessor capabilites, and rules all the market including server market except home PC’s.
    Runs on 99% of worlds best super computers ( I heard a joke that windows comes to Super computers), and is FREE.

    • snemarch says:

      You think Windows scheduler is far more faster than Linux. Well then “This is a significant issue under Windows, where the user-mode overhead is about six times greater than that under Linux.[2]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_server.
      1) you’re quoting WikiPedia.
      2) you’re quoting totally out of context.
      3) the PDF used to back up the claim is from 2005.

      You might want to have a look at how a modern version of IIS performs on a modern version of Windows. If you’re going to compare it to an open source webserver, please do yourself a favor and compare it to nginx and not apache – otherwise you might end up with a heart attack :-)

      • 1) you’re quoting WikiPedia.
        I believe wikipedia can be used to quote things for it is almost always reliable.

        2) you’re quoting totally out of context.
        No I wasnt. I was comparing Ring3 to Ring0 Context switching time of windows and linux.

        Of course, I was not comparing apache , IIS or nginx. I just mentioned it to cite that the windows scheduler spends too much time for context-switching and if so then it would really constitute to the scheduler being slow on windows.
        Well I would never compare IIS with apache except for the fact that apache is cross-platform and has some nice loadable modules and also its market share.

      • Klimax says:

        @Mohammed Muneer:
        If somebody is really worried about context switching or has better idea how to schedule his own threads, he can always use fibres… (usermode only)

        BTW:It looks like you undestand nothing, know nothing, but thinking you do.(example: your ignorant rant on Windows security) Also your posts have zero backing in the real world or you will need to link to your sources.

      • snemarch says:

        Mohammed,

        “2) you’re quoting totally out of context.
        No I wasnt. I was comparing Ring3 to Ring0 Context switching time of windows and linux.”
        Either you haven’t read the PDF you’re indirectly citing, or you didn’t grok it – the wiki quote is grossly misrepresenting the content of the PDF. If anything, you can claim “an Apache 2.0 with unspecified configuration runs about 4 times faster on Linux 2.6 than Windows 2000 for a request size of 64 bytes”. Considering that Apache has a process-based connection model and Windows CreatProcess is known to be quite a bit more expensive than *u*x fork(), knowing the specific apache configuration is kinda important. And this doesn’t really tell you much about the “usermode overhead” or, as you further infer, context-switching and ring3ring0 overhead.

        You might want to read up on I/O Completion Ports, async I/O, and scatter/gather support. And perhaps also do a little reading-up on what has happened in the Windows camp since Windows 2000 (which was rather solid, but there’s been a number of improvements on the kernel front since then – like getting rid of the scheduler lock). Check Russinovich’s videos on Channel 9, and borrow a copy of a recent Windows Internals… that, or don’t speak on subjects you clearly don’t know enough about :)

        Oh, by the way, interesting to see that the naïve kernel-mode windows http server created by the PDF author does so comparatively well, even though it creates a thread per connection.

        And finally, nobody in their right minds would benchmark against Apache in a test that’s so simple that a kernel-mode httpd serving static content will do. Not today, anyway.

      • Klimax

        fibres have lots of limitations, especially when it comes to multi core processors.
        I wasnt stating that because I was worried about context-switching, I was just pointing to some real world situations.

        quote “(example: your ignorant rant on Windows security) Also your posts have zero backing in the real world or you will need to link to your sources.”

        Well there is no need for real world backing or source for my statements on windows security. Apart from the claim that windows desktop looks like shit (which is personal of course and only a idiot will mean it otherwise) , which claim do you think was ignorant or wrong.
        Oh and please speak as a human and that which really happens in the real world. I ask againg which claim was wrong? Windows gets affected by viruses. that is a universal truth. Linux or unix systems do not get affected by viruses of the same nature. Of course it is vulnerable to kernal bugs but that is a different story. Antiviruses slow down the computer and also slows down when copying files (checking for potential malware).

        .net framework was publicised as being cross platform. Of course application will run wherever .net framework was installed. But understand this, a lot of technical
        statements from the manufacturers doesnt mean that they are true. Where does .net applications run apart from windows and its supposed mobile counterparts. And dont start about the mono project, that was a community project. And as far as Microsoft is conisdered, they lied.
        Windows does cost more money than linux and . Well I do not need to link sources for that (are you really an idiot).
        “Windows cannot be made to run on slower computers.”
        Maybe the old windows 3.1 can. But if you are not stupid, you know what I mean.

        Even if I dont provide links, It is a fact that people are afraid to connect their pendrives to a Windows PC. Whether autorun can be disabled is another matter. But the majority of the people using windows are ignorant about that.

        And Of windows simply crashing and its softwares are a piece of crap, that was a personal experience and so no benchmarks. Maybe you havent had that experience, but I will never believe you. That too is personal.

        Snemarch

        Well I have not checked Russinovich’s videos but I will surely when I get the time.

        quote “You might want to read up on I/O Completion Ports, async I/O, and scatter/gather support.”
        Well i do know about those things. How could I not. When I have stated that I do OS develepment for fun.

        quote “Windows Internals… that, or don’t speak on subjects you clearly don’t know enough about :)”
        It is true that I dont know enough about the internals of windows operating systems.
        But knows fairly well about the linux kernel. But I dont think anyone apart from the MS guys know it completely.

        And WHEN did I compare Apache with anything. I really dont know its internals or design strategies. And for heavens sake I quoted the wiki link NOT to compare webservers, but to state on the user-mode overhead in windows and linux. That being on the WEB SERVER WIKI page was a sad coincidence.

      • Scali says:

        “It is true that I dont know enough about the internals of windows operating systems.”

        Congratulations!
        That is exactly the point of this whole blog: linux fanboys talking like they are an expert on Windows, when they clearly aren’t.

      • @scali

        quote “Congratulations!
        That is exactly the point of this whole blog: linux fanboys talking like they are an expert on Windows, when they clearly aren’t.”

        You are the kind of person who has no feelings and does not look on to concepts. You are like those religious fanatics who debate about religious concepts who rely on statements and terms spoken by their opponents without looking to its meaning.

        And to contradict you on a term by term basis since you adopted that path, I would like to quote my own statement just after those statements:

        quote “But I dont think anyone apart from the MS guys know it completely.”

        So either you must get into the inner circles of microsoft kernel code architects or you dont qualify as an expert on windows.

        And if you think you are qualified as an expert on windows in terms of playing with the configuration settings, then that is a poor way of being an expert.

        And Finally
        According to you what constitutes towards being an expert on windows?

      • Scali says:

        “So either you must get into the inner circles of microsoft kernel code architects or you dont qualify as an expert on windows.”

        That’s just what you think.
        Snemarch already gave you some hints on where you can find info on Windows kernel/internals/etc.

        You know, it’s funny… you open source zealots always boast about how your open OS has so many drivers.
        Did you ever ask yourself the question how it is possible that all these hardware companies bundle their products with Windows drivers, despite Windows being closed-source? You think every one of those thousands of companies has access to ‘the inner circles of microsoft kernel code architects’?
        Or maybe, just maybe, there actually is a lot of information available on Windows internals, and how to develop kernel-mode drivers and whatnot?

      • Klimax says:

        @Mohammed Muneer: Sigh. Personal experience is damning for you not for Windows when you have no clue. Refusal to back up your statements noted. Baseless claims about security and stability noted. (Repeating them won’t make them true or correct) Claiming that malware exists therefore system is insecure is also BS. (Just because you are not target yet, doesn’t mean you are secure, it means only that you are not yet good juicy target except when your data are of high value to somebody else) Also your claim about average person being afraid of using pendrive is hilarious and wrong not to mention that update for XP and Vista killed autorun – 7 had it from begining. (Again you showed basic ignorance on state of the world. How many times you did that already?)

        Anyway I suggest that you discard unix glasses (they make you ignorant and blind) and start seriously studying OSes. You are not even a percent there. (And for starters I suggest Windows security model and kernel model – you’ll be suprised…)

        ===

        Of note: You can get sometimes under NDA-like agreement access to Windows source code – goverments and universities notably.

        Also it is very funny to see personal opinion or view peddled as a fact.

      • @Klimax

        “You are not even a percent there”

        Course I am much more than 1% there, though I wont claim as 100 %.. But seeing as what you have said, I doubt you would even qualify to say that.

    • @scali

      So according to you hardware manufacturer’s develop drivers for windows because you think it is far easier to get to know windows internals so as to develop kernel mode drivers despite windows being closed-source than developing kernel drivers for linux.

      They do so not because they couldnt or not because it is hard to develop for linux but because of the very nature of open source kernels, that it is open.
      They do so because windows is more common with normal users, so not developing drivers for windows would be a no brainer. And linux is only a minority when it comes to desktop usage. And it has nothing to do with lots of information available on windows internals.
      And many of the hardware manufacturers prefer to develop proprietory drivers which suites them most and which is hard to be shipped with GPLed softwares.

      Graphics hardware manufacturers have their priority to develop drivers for windows because thats where they can get money. Because Major public play games on windows PC.
      Its all about marketing and MS playing the big boss and nothing to do with knowledge of kernel internals.

      Guess what… I know what you will reply . You will quote the statement “because thats where they can get money” and rant about it and will ignore the main content. Because that is what you whave been doing uptil now. Please be a human and understand my statements in a human sense. Reply to the main content not to some words that you or anyone can twist because clearly I am not an English language master.

      Klimax

      “Refusal to back up your statements noted. Baseless claims about security and stability noted.”
      Really….
      For which statements do you need it. Come on, dont be an idiot.. None required a proof. If you really needed one, then you would have googled it or perhaps you never needed it. But if you still require then let me know for which you needed.

      ” Personal experience is damning for you not for Windows when you have no clue”
      Why cant you distinguish personal experience and personal view. Personal experience occurs when it really happens. Personal experience is damning for me and to every person If I may say so. And since because it happened to me and to many people I know of, then surely windows is to be damned.
      And I have quite clearly distinguished my own personal views from personal experience and real world facts. And you only replied to my personal views. You are the most ingenious person…….

      “(Repeating them won’t make them true or correct)”
      Repeating them would increase the hope of getting people into sense.

      “Claiming that malware exists therefore system is insecure is also BS. ”
      Fine. You can say that, but I will contradict you harshly here. It is your personal opinion. Your own quote “Also it is very funny to see personal opinion or view peddled as a fact.” would suite well to contradict you here.

      “Also your claim about average person being afraid of using pendrive is hilarious and wrong not to mention that update for XP and Vista killed autorun – 7 had it from begining.”
      You have got me here. I was unaware of the latest updates made to Windows. I was talking from my Windows experience last time I used Windows and that was before it has been rectified. But making a big mistake is enough to see the lack of proper design decisions, rectified or not.
      And since I have no plans of going back to windows, all my statements are based on my past experiences. I no longer care for what MS does with its windows. For me the memory was horrible enough. I make cross-platform apps with C++ and Qt and test it on windows just because many clients prefer to use windows. But I always advice them on using any variant of unix or linux.

      ” suggest that you discard unix glasses (they make you ignorant and blind):”
      What about your windows glasses. Do they make you more knowledgable. Since that was your personal view, I can personally say that I am quite fine with unix glasses. They are constructed from bottom up with multi-user stability in mind.

      “start seriously studying OSes”
      Yeah I would want to take your quote to start seriously when I have mentioned I have already developed a working kernel with pretty decent functionality.

      • Scali says:

        Way to miss the point, genius.
        You are just making some bold claims about how people outside Microsoft wouldn’t know anything about Windows internals.
        So I point out that thousands of companies write kernel-mode drivers for Windows, which obviously requires intimate knowledge of Windows internals, interacting with the kernel directly, and whatnot.
        Now I don’t know why you are trying to make this into some kind of debate on which OS is easiest to develop for, because that is completely beside the point here.
        If you are wondering why I don’t respond to you much, it’s quite simple: It’s difficult to take anything you say seriously. Your claims are preposterous, and you show little or no actual technical knowledge or insight.
        Nobody cares about the personal views and inane ramblings of the umpteenth idiotic linux fanboy.
        Technical disscusions, fine, but that seems to be a bit out of your league. Even moreso than that other idiotic fanboy, Jed Smith.

        As for security vs safety, malware and all that. The difference between safety and security was already covered here: http://scalibq.wordpress.com/2011/06/25/os-xsafer-by-design/
        It seems you don’t understand what Klimax is saying.

  17. @scali
    You are the most idiotic person I have ever seen.
    @appu
    I dont know what to say about you. Either you simply suck or you are too ignorant when it comes to Operating System internals. I am pretty sure that you are ignornant on other programming things too. Go learn and come.

  18. @appu
    “but open source products are not known to work the best the first time”
    -Why would someone want that? Why would someone want to take the hard route when an easier route exists.

    because sometimes the best thing is hard to find and the most horrible thing is the easiest

  19. @scali
    A just question.
    Is intel a total shit corporation employing idiots like you.

  20. Pingback: Random thoughts on programming, culture and such | Scali's OpenBlog™

  21. Pingback: More thoughts… | Scali's OpenBlog™

  22. mikichamp says:

    ROFL….

    Post a blog, get owned by comments (by Jed Smith)… get butt hurt. Make another blog, mentioning Jed Smith (obviously unable to move on), get owned again (by Jed Smith).

    What’s more hilarious than all of that is how you throw ad hominem attacks against Jed Smith, then proceed to accuse him of taking “cheap shots” at you.

    Your desperation is noted, Scali. Really.

    PS Jed Smith, nicely played. You kept a level head the entire time.

  23. Smoke says:

    Arguing with Linux fanboys, goes nowhere fast.

    I don’t claim to be an expert, but their biggest silver bullets against Windows are generally just untrue.

    1. Windows is unstable. (Not if you know what you’re doing, I’ve ran Windows based PC’s 24\7 for years at a time, with heavy use, ie, gaming, internet, etc,.)

    2. Windows isn’t secure. (No, it’s heavily targeted, and quite secure, if you aren’t an idiot..)

    3. Open source, blah.. (Sure, lot’s of Windows stuff isn’t open source, but, there is plenty of open source stuff on Windows, if that’s what ya want, Windows has it too.)

    I like how they complain about M$ making money, yet fail to understand they also create jobs, and drive technical achievements that likely wouldn’t happen if things were left to open source developers. (ie, They spend millions\billions to create technology, that guys working in their spare time simply couldn’t achieve on their own.)

    Look at how many open source projects start out with lofty goals, then fall flat when they realize, they don’t have the man power to actually make it happen, or the skills, etc,.

    Whatever, despite all their claims about how terrible Windows is, it works fine for me. (I’ve used every Windows iteration since v3.1… Trust me, there is nothing wrong with Windows, it’s you, not the OS.)

  24. Tristan says:

    How old are you guys?.. Seriously.. You are arguing like little kids..

    • snemarch says:

      ZOMG! YOU ARE WEARING A FUNNY HAT! YOU MUST BE USING LUNIX!
      :-)

    • willy-bill says:

      I don’t know about you, but I find these Linux vs Windows vs Mac to be very entertaining. For a couple IT professionals, neither have an idea what they are talking about, and neither will ever, as they are fanboys turned IT “professionals” (read quotes to really mean IT amateurs).

      I love the part where she claimed a company asked her to design an ACL to manage some business so large, the standard Linux permission system was inadequate. Oh well, I digress.

      BTW, folks, yes I’m a Linux user. I have use Windows, but my main reason for switching to Linux was due to the fact I didn’t feel like shelling out $$$. No, I don’t have an issue with Windows, unlike Apple anything past the IIe. There isn’t anything wrong with either OS, their uses depends mostly on what the job that is required (servers), and personal choice (desktops). I will never use Windows server on my personal ssytems, but may use Windows on a desktop, or two.

      Oh, and yes. I did notice this article, and comments are dated. Had they been more than four years old, I wouldn’t have wasted my time.

  25. Pingback: Just keeping it real, part 10 | Scali's OpenBlog™

  26. Pingback: Linux, the Dunning-Kruger OS | Scali's OpenBlog™

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